I’m in my Head, Thinking my Thoughts

I’m in my Head, Thinking my Thoughts

I’m in my Head, Thinking my Thoughts

By ratiocination, I mean computation. […] all ratiocination is comprehended in these two operations of the mind, addition and substraction.

Thomas Hobbes, De Corpore, 1655

 

https://www.consciousentities.com/2013/02/feral-neurons/

 

In this post the dialogue is realised by an interaction of virtual characters, for more information please check the page “Virtual characters

Julia

Thanks again for all the information! 🙏

I’ve vastly improved my essay already 😊

Today 11:32  

Cho

I also learnt a great deal. I am used to just thinking of brains as machinery ⚙️

Today 11:36   

Julia

There actually is a position a bit like that … 🤷🏼‍♀️

Today 11:36  

Cho

You mean the one with the “homunculi” … ?                                  

Today 11:37

Julia

Right, that’s latin for “little person”…

you’d actually be like a little man sitting in a theatre, looking at all your sensations, and trying to make sense of them

Today 11:38   

Cho

You’re making me regret not having done latin and greek now … 😅

but isn’t that the position he criticizes?

Today 11:40  

Julia

Yes, but he changes it around a bit.

If the actual “you” would be like a little person in your head, wouldn’t this “little person” need one of their own?

Today 11:42   

 

Cho

Right, an infinite regress of observes within observers that in the end fail to explain anything about consciousness

Today 11:43 

Julia

Indeed, then he came up with the idea of a whole bunch of “homunculi” that do really simple stuff, like detect lines or colors, 

Today 11:44   

Julia

then some combining those into simple shapes, like “read triangle”, and further down the line complex shapes, like “a rose” 🌹 

Today 11:44   

Cho

And that sounds a bit weird, but then he links that to neural machinery, and it becomes almost trivial … 😊

Today 11:45   

Julia

But he means it like a kind of mental software running on the neural hardware, it is not exactly like the identity theory

Today 11:46   

Cho

No, that’s right, you explain that very clearly in the paper 📄Someone like that would argue that you can run the same software on many different types of hardware

Today 11:46   

Julia

Yes, so that would account for neurodiversity? Right?

Today 11:47

Cho

I’m quite tempted to say yes, it does sound very convincing, but then he wants to run it on computers too …

Today 11:48   

 

Julia

You think that can’t be done?

Today 11:49 

Cho

Well, I’m no programmer, but at least nowadays I don’t think we have computers that are big enough or fast enough.

So, … maybe?🤔

Today 11:49   

Julia

Do you think there is something special about the brain itself that allows us to think and be conscious?

Today 11:50 

Cho

Ah! I can see where you are going with this. That’s Searle’s theory, right?

Today 11:50   

Julia

Right!

Today 11:51 

Cho

I’ll have to think about it a bit more …🧐                                            

Today 11:52   

… Continue to read the conversation between Julia and Cho 
on Saturday 6th February…

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My brain is me (Part 1/4)

Mental Brains (Part 2/4)

I’m in my head thinking my thoughts (this article, Part 3/4)

Mind over matter (Part 4/4)

Mental Brains

Mental Brains

Mental Brains

Hemispherectomy” the operation where half the brain is removed sounds too radical to ever consider, much less perform.

In the last century, however, surgeons have performed it hundreds of times for disorders uncontrollable in any other way ….

 

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/strange-but-true-when-half-brain-better-than-whole/

 

In this post the dialogue is realised by an interaction of virtual characters, for more information please check the page “Virtual characters

Cho

OK, I’ve read your draft. 😊
Again: I’m not an expert in philosophy or psychology, so you’ve got to explain some things.

Today 11:34   

Cho

I mean, both to me here and now, and in the paper, so the readers can follow along

Today 11:34   

Julia

Sure, I’ll try my best.. ☺️

Today 11:32  

Cho

So, the “identity theory”: mental events are brain events                              

Today 11:36   

Julia

They argue it has to be the same brain process for each mental process.

So if I say that we both believe something, then we have to have the same brain processes …

Today 11:36  

Cho

… and that is nonsense of course 🙅🏻‍♀️                                                                 

Today 11:37

Cho

Not only do different people have different brains, an individual brain also changes during your lifetime                                                       

Today 11:37

Julia

That’s exactly the kind of information I needed!
Can you elaborate on that?.

Today 11:38   

Cho

Sure ! 

There are records of people with vastly different brains that still have mostly normal behavior and cognitive abilities                                                

Today 11:40  

Cho

Like the patients who have undergone hemispherectomy as children to cure certain forms of epilepsy.

Today 11:44   

Julia

I’m not a neurosurgeon, but I’ve had greek in highschool … 🤔 

“hemispherectomy” means something like “cutting away half the sphere”? 

Today 11:44   

 

Cho

Well done with the greek!👍🏻 That’s exactly what it means.                   

Today 11:44

Julia

But it can’t mean removing half the brain, right? 😰

Today 21:44   

Cho

Oh yes it does! We can remove half the brain, generally in very young children, which then develop relatively normally.                   

Today 11:45   

Julia

I can’t believe this! Half the brain! 🧠 😳

Today 11:46   

Cho

Yes, and “relatively normally” means that most impairments are mainly due to the illness, not the surgery itself.                                                                                           

Today 11:46   

Julia

We can remove half a brain … with no ill effects? 🤨

Today 11:47

Cho

Well, that does sound a bit too good to be true😊😊… but more or less, yes!

If the children are still young, the remaining hemisphere is adaptable enough to compensate for the missing half.

Today 11:48   

 

Julia

That’s … wow … that’s amazing!  ☺️🤗
And I see why that would be a problem for the theory ….

Today 11:47

Cho

Yes! they think and feel just like everyone else, but with a completely different brain structure.                                             

Today 11:48   

Julia

So we can’t point out one-to-one correspondences with such large neurodiversity. 

Today 11:47

Cho

That would be a problem indeed. Still, I saw there was another very similar position that could accommodate this …                                        

Today 11:48   

Julia

Could I first revise this part and then get back to you?

Today 11:47

Cho

Sure thing! ☺️                                                                                                 

Today 11:48   

… Continue to read the conversation between
Julia and Cho on Saturday 27th … 

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My Brain is Me

My Brain is Me

My Brain is Me

“There are two things about the human soul on which all the knowledge we can have of its nature depends: one of which is that it thinks, and the other is that, being united to the body, it can act on and be acted upon by it.”

Descartes to Elisabeth, 21 May 1643

https://philosophynow.org/issues/65/How_Are_The_Mind_And_Brain_Related

 

In this post the dialogue is realised by an interaction of virtual characters, for more information please check the page “Virtual characters

Julia

Dear Professor, I am writing an essay on the relation between body and mind.

Could I ask you some questions?

Today 11:32  

Cho

Sure, happy to help   😀😀                                                                           

Today 11:34   

Julia

Thank you! I want to discuss all the classical positions on the relation between brain and mind

Today 11:34   

Julia

I’d like some input from a real neuroscientist on this, because some of them sound …. really weird and implausible?

Today 11:35  

Cho

Ok, but I’m not really an expert in philosophy or psychology as such.             

Today 11:36   

Julia

Oh but it is specifically about what the brain can and cannot do that I have questions …

Today 11:36  

Cho

That actually is my area of expertise, so fire away!                       

Today 11:37

Julia

So I’ve reviewed the classical positions, like Cartesian Dualism, where mind and brain are separate and don’t interact …

Today 11:38   

Cho

… that _is_ weird and implausible …                                                

Today 11:40  

Julia

Right! But what I actually have the most trouble with is the identity theory: that the mind just is the brain, full stop.

Today 11:43   

Cho

On first sight that also is weird and implausible!                           

Today 11:44   

Julia

Yeah, so there are a couple of variations on this theory, but the gist seems simply that “we are our brains”

Today 11:44   

Cho

I’m sure it is more complicated than that … I can tell you straight away, I’ve lots of brains close up, but never a  thought …                                      

Today 11:44

Julia

Ooh, that’s a good one, can I quote you on that? 😍

Today 21:44   

Cho

It’s just the punchline from an old joke, but sure …😄                     

Today 11:45   

Julia

Right, but there are some variations on this theory and this is where things get confusing for me …

Today 11:46   

Julia

One says that all mental processes correlate one-on-one with physical processes in the brain, hence the mind is the brain

Today 11:46   

Cho

Literally?    🤔                                                                                             

Today 11:46   

Julia

Yes, they argue the mind isn’t caused by the brain, but coincides with the brain? Like lightning isn’t caused by an electrical discharge, but simply is an electrical discharge?

Today 11:47

Cho

OK, that actually sounds … intelligible. Send me your draft and I’ll check it out.                                          

Today 11:48   

Julia

Thank you! That’s very helpful! ☺️

Today 11:47

Cho

I’m actually curious what else they have to say about the  brain … 😮😮                                               

Today 11:48   

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Captain Cyborg

Captain Cyborg

Captain Cyborg

Even if we cannot upload our consciousness to the cloud, what if we could send our own sensations and memories to another person? Can we really transfer information brain-to-brain over the internet? Do we need to worry that this could turn us into remotely controlled puppets? Never fear! Captain Cyborg is here to test invasive technologies so you don’t have to!

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/acs.854

In this post the dialogue is realised by an interaction of virtual characters, for more information please check the page “Virtual characters

Manuel

The brain-extraction-injection thing really was really … 🤢 🤮 eww! Please tell me you’re not building a Frankenmouse …

Today 11:32  

Cho

Ethical and research standards have changed a lot since then you know …   😀😀                                                                           

Today 11:34   

Manuel

Good! I wanted to ask you some questions about “Captain Cyborg”, Kevin Warwick

Today 11:34   

Manuel

He implanted a “BrainGate” neural interface to control a prosthetic over the net, and with sensory feedback

Today 11:35  

Manuel

But then he also linked it to another human, his wife …
Today 11:35   

Cho

… and then of course he claimed this would also enable some kind of transfer of memories, right?            

Today 11:36   

Manuel

Right. So how about that? Wouldn’t that work if both have a full implant?

Today 11:36  

Cho

Probably not, there is a significant difference between a sensation and a memory of a sensation  🤨

Today 11:37

Cho

remembering the taste of something isn’t the same as actually tasting it, or we’d never spend another penny on chocolate

Today 11:37

Manuel

Ok, yeah, I get that  🤯🤯🤯

Today 11:38   

Cho

Stimulateing someone’s nervous system over the internet using someone else’s sensation as input is not the same as storing and accessing memories or giving them a new memory

Today 11:40  

Cho

aaand you’re going to bring up mind control again now …  😆😆    

Today 11:41   

Manuel

Well, yes, kinda. You told me it was not possible, but Warwick’s article suggested it was

Today 11:43   

Cho

OK then. Have you heard about remotely controlled cockroaches?

Today 11:44   

Manuel

WHAT  😲😲😲😲

Today 11:44   

Cho

It’s true: there’s even kits to build your own!                                       

Today 11:44

Manuel

…………. 😱😱😱😱😱😱😱😱😱😱

Today 21:44   

Cho

Substituting an artificial stimulus for a natural one is, yes, in a sense a very limited form of “mind control”, but!

Today 11:45   

Cho

but even with cockroaches, the best we can do is make them go left or right for a few minutes 😅

Today 11:45   

Manuel

You mean it is still all too primitive?

Today 11:46   

Cho

That’s also exactly what Warwick concluded: extremely primitive. The “telepathy” etc. he suggests is still pure science-fiction
Today 11:46   

Manuel

OK, many thanks! This has been both horrifying and instructive, what with the rats and the roaches

Today 11:47

Cho

Glad I could be of help!  😊😊😊😊                                                   

Today 11:48   

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Be2Be networking

Be2Be networking

Be2Be networking

Can we transfer information directly from one brain to another? And then link multiple brains into a hive-mind like the Borg? Could acquire new information without having actually to learn it? Experiments on rats seem to suggest that we can transfer memories from one brain to another, even when linking them over the internet.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC224185/

https://www.nature.com/articles/209046a0

In this post the dialogue is realised by an interaction of virtual characters, for more information please check the page “Virtual characters

Manuel

I’m back again! I remembered reading something about transferring memories from brain to brain

Today 21:30   

Cho

OK, go on 😏😏                                                                            

Today 21:34   

Manuel

There was this experiment with rats, connected through the internet 😱😱

Today 21:34   

Cho

That was a while ago already, in 2013 IIRC                                

Today 21:35   

Manuel

Yes, indeed, so this seems to show that we can already “write” new information into the brain, right?

Today 21:35   

Cho

Well, let me unpack that experiment for you before answering  

Today 21:37

Cho

They didn’t just link two rat brain and then let one rat learn something, which was then uploaded to an untrained rat

Today 21:37

Manuel

No?

Today 21:38   

Cho

No. They trained one group of rats to press a lever if a light went on, and the other one if they got an electrical stimulus in the brain

Today 21:40   

Cho

Then they made the first rat do its task, measured the brain output, and triggered an electrical stimulus in the second

Today 21:40   

Manuel

And that isn’t the same as uploading and downloading information from one brain to the other?

Today 21:40   

Cho

It’s more Pavlov with electricity. You train a rat to react to an input, then link that to the output of another rat

Today 21:41   

Cho

That’s not really uploading and downloading information.                

Today 21:41   

Manuel

Ah, ok I think I see what you mean

Today 21:41   

Cho

And this is about a simple kind of behavior like pressing a lever, not something complex like a memory  😉

Today 21:42

Manuel

So people who are afraid of being remote-controlled through a chip can rest easy?

Today 21:44   

Cho

There is far more going on in the brain than just electrical impulses, triggering trained behavior. Mind control trough brain interfaces are not going to happen anytime soon

Today 21:45   

Manuel

Thank you for your time, this has been most instructive! 🧐🧐

Today 21:45   

Cho

Did you know they already tried this in the ’60 through brain extracts?

Today 21:46   

Manuel

WHAT 😲😲😲😲😲😲😲😲

Today 21:48   

Cho

They would train rats, extract parts of their brains, and then inject them into untrained rats                                                            

Today 21:49   

Manuel

Now you’re just messing with me … 😅😅

Today 21:48   

Cho

Oh no, I’ll give you a link. It seemed to work too …                    

Today 21:49   

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